The word on DoG Street is that the program changes at Colonial Williamsburg over the past few years have led to a decline in attendance. In fact, just the opposite is true. In 2014, after President Mitchell Reiss and his new team brought innovative program changes to CW, attendance rose after a seven-year decline.
For cultural institutions like Colonial Williamsburg, attendance is the key to survival, both from a business AND Core Mission perspective. Somehow people must be hooked, grabbed, drawn to Colonial Williamsburg. Times and tastes have changed and so must the experience. Our core mission hasn’t changed, but how we draw people to it must.
Colonial Williamsburg has introduced many new programs in an effort to draw families back to our historic streets. We have introduced new and innovative programming in the Historic Area – an archaeological dig for kids, new Nation Builders, ox cart rides, the Playbooth Theatre, starting a colonial musket range, opening the Liberty Lounge and embracing our military, and celebrating haunted Halloween on DoG Street. Many of these are very hands-on, a growing trend and need in engaging people at cultural institutions.
In addition, CW remains America’s greatest living history museum exactly because we’re telling America’s – and all Americans’ – enduring story.
Since President Reiss arrived in 2014, we’ve kicked off new programs to tell a more comprehensive American story. Much effort has gone into theatrical programming, such as “Journey to Redemption,” in which actor-interpreters share the challenges confronted in portrayals of the enslaved and slaveholders of 18th-century America. We have expanded the programing at the Randolph site that centers on the paradox of slavery and freedom during the Revolution. We have also worked hard to develop community partnerships with institutions such as the First Baptist Church to add depth and substance to the discussion of Williamsburg’s and America’s racial past.
As noted above, this effort, these new programs and the hard work of those who bring them to life, halted a seven-year decline in attendance. Most recently, the Virginia Gazette reported that CW’s year-over-year attendance is up by 10%.
Our society and its interests have changed. The expectations and needs for a meaningful experience are not what they were in the 1970s, 1980s, or even five years ago. We will continue to find and develop new ways to attract people to our one-of-a-kind historical experience and our Core Mission so we keep the upward momentum going.
Jeff Ellis says
There could be a great discussion on the current confederate monuments issue and any parallels in CW.
Mick Giandiletti says
If we only had a blog.
Jeff Ellis says
I used to visit the blog every couple days and found much interesting reading and in touch between our vacations there. What a
Jeff Ellis says
If the blog can only get a fresh article twice a month it gives the impression of staleness to CW. It’s better to give up the ghost and remove all evidence of a CW blog if you can’t bring yourselves to write something about the current happenings and people and interesting accounts from history. How frustrating, and irritating to find the keepers of the flame don’t have the energy to fan it a bit.
Mary Anne Blackburn says
Or perhaps even just answer the questions people have asked about upcoming events?
Maria says
Any upcoming Programs this Fall featuring the Founding Fathers and Nation Builders?
Jeff says
They are getting more and more away from the CW traditional programs at the Charlton Stage, the stage behind the Palace and the Hennage. They are opting for having the Nation Builders in and at various sites for more informal encounters where most people don’t know where to begin in conversing with them and come away having had an “experience” but having learned nothing or next to nothing.
Joan says
Sadly, I have to agree with you. As I’m planning an upcoming trip, this trend is very obvious. I can find few opportunities for seeing the Nation Builders in a formal event such as those informative and entertaining events at the Hennage we have loved in the past.
Mary Anne Blackburn says
Is it possible there could be a new webcam when the construction begins on the exciting expansion of the Museums this fall?
Jeff Ellis says
That would be interesting. I have asked if one could be put in the upstairs of the “Lumber” building ticket office pointing up the Palace Green towards the Palace. So much happens in that area it would be wonderful. But I never get a response on that.
Grayson says
Absolutely.
Phil LeDuc says
Hello, Mary Anne -
Sorry not to have replied earlier, but I only saw your inquiry today. I too thought a webcam covering the new museum expansion would be of interest to many CW friends, and so I asked a person in Development about it. He in turn asked someone on the museums side of things. The word came back that yes - there will be a webcam once construction gets under way.
Mary Anne Blackburn says
Exciting! Thank you so much for your response; I look forward to watching the museum expand!
Laura Short says
I’ve loved Colonial Williamsburg for almost 40 years. My late Husband and I were in the habit of spending our anniversary there. But times have definitely changed. Craft House has changed. Shields Tavern has changed. Programs have changed. The Museums have changed. The Shoppes on DoG Street have changed. The CWF Program has changed: furniture, paint, tableware, and other goods are no longer available or are of lesser quality/lesser authenticity than they once were. In fact…so much has changed that if it weren’t for my old receipts, I’d wonder if I had just imagined Williamsburg’s recent past in the decor of my home.
I know times change, people change, and the prevailing culture changes. And, yes, our understanding of history changes as we apply a bit of “revision” to our own past stories. But Williamsburg seems to have lost so much of what made it unique, special. I think that’s sad. No more can I walk around imaging myself to actually *be* in the 18-th century.
I’m glad attendance trends have reversed. But I shan’t be back. “They” say you can never go home again… well, “they” seem to be right.
Jan says
Laura,
I would be interested to know what changes bother you. Many of us have special memories of our time at favorite places. And, even those of us who have only been visiting CW for a few years, have seen changes. I miss Wesley Greene, and the “Journal.” Is that the sort of thing you’re talking about? Thanks for your thoughtful post.
Jan
Jim says
I live in Va. Beach…travel thru the most feared five words in the English Language…The Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel….
I visit at least twice a month…
Lots of folks cant or wont accept change….a major reason, I think, that CW hasn’t made a profit since the mid 1980’s..
Each visit ..is a new experience…especially with the new ..and ABOUT TIME PROGRAMS…..now being offered.
HG ROWELL says
REPLACING THE CW JOURNAL WAS THE FIRST MISTAKE MITCHELL REISS MADE. “TREND & TRADITION” WILL NEVER REPLACE THE CW JOURNAL. “TREND & TRADITION” DOES NOTHING TO INSPIRE ME TO MAKE A RETURN TRIP TO WILLIAMSBURG.
P:Turner says
The CW Journal was far better, more interesting, and more educational than “Trend & Tradition”. I had a really bad feeling about the new publication that was confirmed when Martha Stewart was chosen for a cover rather than any of the gracious welcoming men and women of Williamsburg.
As much as I love Colonial Williamsburg and hope to visit many more times, I am having serious problems with the fundraising appeals. There seems to be little to no response to blog comments and questions.
Jeff Ellis says
So far only readers are writing. My wife and I have spent two or three vacations a year in CW for the past seven years. We have loved the people and the place. My means of staying in touch with CW between vacations has been the Journal, (now the not so good Trens and Traditions magazine), the webcams, and most importantly, this blog.
But the blog needs new, current articles.
Any entries forthcoming?
Pam Agnew says
As John Adams asks plaintively in the musical “1776”: “Is anybody there? Does anybody care????”
You have received a huge amount of input from people who have cared about Colonial Williamsburg for decades? All we are hearing is crickets chirping.
One of the BIGGEST mistakes businesses and employers can make is to invite input and to then not respond. Happens all the time with employee surveys, and lack of response just further damages morale and kills trust. People have donated money and treasures for years, only to see that there money has been misused, and apparently many treasures auctioned off. Craftsmen and other employees dedicated their lives to working for CW, only to be let go with a “generous separation package” that inspires me to say yeah, try living on that when you can’t get another job because you are over 50. Visitors come to CW for something special, and that something special seems to be getting morphed into just another amusement park.
LEADERSHIP set direction. MANAGEMENT manages progress. It sounds like you have a lot of managers making progress, but in a direction that will take you over a cliff, because your LEADERSHIP is not setting the right direction.
CW is not primarily a business, although it has to be run along the lines of a business. It is a treasure that was built around a vision, that suffered because “leadership” strayed from that vision with money-making ventures that sucked the mission support nearly dry. And it seems to some of us that those ventures were more about their own prestige and cushy jobs, and a big roster of VPs, than anything remotely concerned with the core vision and mission of Colonial Williamsburg. It also sounds like some of the past “leadership” that accomplished this trail of destruction is still on board.
And TALK TO US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jennifer says
Do they still have RevQuest?
Miick Giandiletti says
Do they still have a blog?
Pam Agnew says
Apparently not. And apparently leadership and management doesn’t care about what a fair representation of core Colonial Williamsburg supporters have to say - including some very good and innovative ideas. Concerns about some of the changes have been dismissed as coming from people who can’t handle change. I would say the criticisms have generally been focused on specifics and constructive - not against change, but against the wrong kind of change. I am afraid this blog may be a good representation of things to come. A big source of outreach abandoned, and long-time supporters ignored. I am reminded of an old saying about the pillaging of Rome: what the Barbarians didn’t destroy, the Barberini did.
Jeff Ellis says
There are probably a hundred employees who could write an article of interest to the visitors to this blog.
For instance the young lady in the kitchen at the Randolph House who explained a lot about the foods slaves cooked and dined on. We enjoyed that in our visit late June of this year. It shouldn’t be difficult to keep this blog going strong.
Was Bill Sullivan one of the employees let go?
Jeff Ellis says
It’s July 20th.
I will check the blog from time to time for a short while in case it returns to what it used to do.
Pam Agnew says
Only the sound of crickets chirping -
robert cocco says
When the CWF was founded over 80 years ago it told the people that they displace from there homes that they would make sure that they maintained the story of CWF forever in the future. A very wise man at the time stated in a citizens meeting that he believed them at the time but he felt that the leaders of the future could not be counted on keeping that promise. I guess he was right those 80 years ago, a very wise man.
Jan says
I would like to remind the powers-that-be at Colonial Williamsburg that these websites may be the only contact many people have, throughout the year, with CW. It may be expensive to maintain retail, hotels, and all the rest that you are now shedding, but a more frequent blogpost cannot be that big a burden. We’ve lost The Ancient Gardener, and there are fewer and fewer posts from Historic Foodways, and fewer offerings from interpreters and those in charge of livestock and crafts. If you want to keep people “in touch”, be careful what you cut.
Jeff Ellis says
June 29 we got Mr. Reiss’ explanation of CW’s financial plight and plan to fix it.
We wait until July 10 for a report that changes have increased attendance.
It’s July 14 and no stories seem to be coming to the blog that might inspire us to actually visit CW.
What’s the point of Making History Now?
Are there no more stories? I know that’s not the case.
Can I hope to come here and see something inspiring soon?
Emily DeArdo says
I agree. This has been very downbeat lately!
Miick Giandiletti says
They don’t appear to be listening. Oh well, at least it isn’t peak summer tourist season.
Marsha Heien says
I used to receive the Making History e-mails, but I haven’t received any in a long time. I have put my e-mail address on the list, it says I am signed up, but why don’t I receive any?
I just happened on this one when I went to history.org to see what was new.
I would really like to get back on the list…what do I have to do to get the Making History reports regularly?
Harvey Beure says
You are not alone. Mine stopped coming in January or February. When I was able to reach someone in Williamsburg they said they had a new system and the problem was on their end. I did receive a few in March, but nothing since. I too got the same message when trying to renter my e-mail. I so liked getting the blog in my inbox. Always a nice treat from Williamsburg. The shopping website of theirs had no problem reaching me. Ha.
P:Turner says
I stopped receiving the blogs in April and even signed up with another email address that I have but still nothing.
As much as I love Colonial Williamsburg, I have serious doubts about the direction in which it is being taken by the administration. And the administration seems to be deaf to the people.
Thomas Puff says
My wife and I visited CW last year, me for the first time and for my wife the second.(as a child, the first time). We fell in love with the place, the people, the speeches, shows and exhibits. We are planning another visit this fall and we can’t wait!!! I have purchased several books and 100’s of postcards of CW!
I understand that with the money problems and changing times, that changes must be made. But PLEASE, don’t take your eye off the ball or your mission statement. I used to work for a copier company who did just that! Five years ago we had 20 technicians working in the field in my city. Then under new management, our monthly stats were under the microscope, each tech had to generate 4 or 500 dollars in revenue each month and was given lo marks in their reviews and passed over for raises and bonuses if they didn’t. They said they were concerned with the customer but everything they did was for more money. Eventually our customers started going elsewhere for machines and service and we lost accounts. We were down to 12 folks when my job was eliminated and there are going to be more cuts this year. I said all that to say this.
Please be sure to concentrate on your core mission. Keep your excellent trades people and interpreters. We love them!! Insure that the cuts you make will enhance your ability to satisfy your guests/customers. Then find a new way to reach out to America and inform them of all the wonderful programs and history that you can offer them. When I was in High School in the 1970’s I never knew that CW existed or I would have driven my Dad nuts until he took me there. My wife talked me into going and said that CW wasn’t a Disney World.
I’m sooooo looking forward to our visit and plan on coming again, as I love the history of this great nation of ours! I pray that you will find the right balance to resolve these problems and wish God to bless CW and God Bless the USA!!!
Jeff Ellis says
There are a lot of extremely engaged employees there. My wife and I “discovered ” CW after 30 years of marriage. We fell in love with it. We spend about 15 days a year there in vacation. A special feeling comes over us the moment we hit the area. We have opened up in our willingness to interact with interpreters and that has added to our experience so much.
nancy just says
CW is a place that I will always hold in my heart. Went there with my parents and brother as a little girl and many other yearly visits. I even lived in Richmond for 6 years and spent a great deal of time walking DOG street and just taking in the atmosphere as our founding leaders did. Colonial Williamsburg is a special place that I keep up with daily on your web page. I contribute a small amount monthly and sing your praises to all my friends and people i come in contact with. It is a place that truly holds the American spirit and gives us all insight into what life was like and from that we can learn. Thank you for all you do CW and continue getting back to core values and people will continue to visit and learn. I love the place and hold you in my heart always!
robert cocco says
Been going to and gifting CWF every year since 1981 so I have seen and heard a lot. All the talk about trying to get revenue up misses the point. If the leaders of the foundation did not make very bad investments we would not be in the deep debt now. Our high paid leaders got us in this situation not the people that visit CWF. I do not hear of any of the head management taking a pay cut for their past mistakes. (and a lot of them there were)
I can not believe that the solution is to have more bells and whistles to entertain the public, sad.
Jeff Ellis says
This reminds me of a wonderful family resort in Lancaster Pennsylvania we went to for decades. Over time a higher and higher percentage of guests were devoted repeat visitors. There were fewer and fewer first time guests. The number of faithful returnees gradually diminished due to deaths and other causes. They finally closed and razed the place. They just didn’t appeal to the next generation enough. We stayed there for the last time two weeks before it closed and couldn’t understand why it had to. We still loved it there and it was in top notch condition.
Barbara says
My love of CW started at a young age. My parents were clever and history was always part of our summer vacation time. We didn’t know how much we were learning, while having fun. The new activities for the children are awesome. When you visit CW as a child, you will keep going back the rest of your lifetime.
Jeff Ellis says
The theme or mission of the Making History Now blog is something like “inspiring the modern revolutionary” not “explaining and defending ourselves”.
I wish Mr. Reiss and all the leadership the best in getting CW on sound footing. I think Mr. Reiss has written of getting to the core mission. This blog spot could use that and get back to articles on the people and places in CW that exemplify what CW is about.
Rob says
Food trucks on DoG? Was this well thought out? Doesn’t seem very 18th century to me. The over devopment of Williamsburg has greatly reduced the , back in time experience, but money had to be made I guess, but food trucks in the restored area? Perhaps the Magazine could,be converted to a Chiplote?
Betty says
The 4th of July is an event in its own and had a lot of non-period correct elements: as long as I’ve being going, anyway. When you’re expecting tens of thousands of people, you want to keep them fed and happy. It’s not a daily thing.
Vicki Clark says
I don’t know the specifics for Colonial Williamsburg, but food vendors would, I believe, have been common in most any colonial village. Oysters, fish, sweets, roasted corn,, fruit in season, etc. were all sold in the open air in markets in old New Orleans, Savannah, etc. These would have been the equivalent of our food trucks… I don’t think it’s such a stretch to offer 21st century street food to CW visitors.
Jacque Blundell says
And those flush toilets in the HA. They have to go too.
Boot says
Or Starbucks?!
Mike Duffey says
We thought “Cry Witch” and “To hang a pirate” were absolutely fantastic! More of them would be a great addition. Also did a Civil War ghost tour several years ago. That was great as well! I’ve seen many changes over the years, at one time, each day of the week portrayad a different year, then it was a three day cycle, then all in the course of one day. I prefer a two or three day cycle, but you’ll never please everyone!?❤??
Nicole says
My husband and I visited for 7 days about a month ago. It was my first time. We were on site for 14 hours a day running from program to program and catching the trades in between. We’d spend an hour each night adjusting our schedule to prioritize programs and open trades.
As someone who was only mildly acquainted in colonial history, I came away with a thirst for more. It’s one of those things that the more I experienced, the greater my thirst for knowledge. I came away with a reading list that will only grow. CW gave me the beginning of a qwest for knowledge about a subject I didn’t initially seek. A successful museum does just that; pique your interest to create a longing for more.
Mary Anne Blackburn says
You are an example of “CW Mission Accomplished”
Lorena Cremeans says
I have been to Williamsburg more times than I can count my fingers on both hands 🙂 and sometimes things must change I order for things to grow in a community such as Colonial Williamsburg , hopefully for the better, I have heard some of the same comments that have been posted this evening, but I must say one thing and I don’t know if anyone has ever gave it a thought?? Talking about me and just me and my husband alone. I go to Williamsburg because it is a part of my soul and spirt! When I first went there as I said before I felt the sprit of the place and not the buying of gifts or things like that, if you go there for gifts and not for what it offers to you in what our American history has give to us all, well you won’t get it and no matter how old you are or what you do to attract younger people it won’t work. It is just like a theme park , I like them for my grand kids , but for me I just like to watch them have fun riding ride and I was like that all my life, except Walt Disney World. It has something that all age people of all ages can enjoy! It is like Williamsburg , I go there to walk the street like our fore fathers did doing whatever they had to do to help make our country strong and great and as an American, that is what draws me there. I can imagine them walking down and up the streets and hold hearings at the Capital and pass laws for our country’s good and well being for all Americans . Buying a ticket is a good thing and while you buy one buy a years pass as I use to do and go explore our country’s history that has made us a great nation ! I hope that whomever reads this will come away with the urge to want to go and enjoy what Colonial Williamsburg has to offer from eating at there historical Kings’ Arms Traven to many other eating places to staying the night at one of their special rooms at thier many inns and fall asleep dreaming that you just experienced the past of Colonial Williamsburg . Sincerely
Glenn Thompson says
Lorena, I couldn’t have said it better! We are truely kindred spirits in our love for our country and our love of C W. There has been so much negativity about the ongoing financial situation.. I truely hope a solution can be found to help this wonderful place in American history continue it’s mission to inspire and tell the story of early America. During our many visits to C W over the years my wife and I have always been treated as welcome guests by everyone from the Lodge staff to the costumed interpreters to the sales associates. I plan to double my monthly contribution in hopes of being part of the solution rather than just pointing out what’s wrong.
Pat Cadwell says
Methinks you protest too much, MakingHistoryNow….the tone of your writing gives the reader the impression of an attempt at justifying the continuation of the sillification of what was once an institution renowned for its attachment to historical accuracy and scholarly integrity.
Jacque Blundell says
In many ways its all about the arithmatic. Look at the numbers. Something MUST change or CW will be gone in ten years. Now, as someone who went to a Women’s College that almost closed in the late 1970s (Wilson, in Chambersburg, PA) I have some knowledge of exaclty how far changing a beloved institution can go before its no longer the place you loved. I believe that the trustees of Wilson at the time were right - that the time for a small academic liberal arts college for women in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania was over. They went about it all wrong but they were right. I look at what Wilson has become and my heart breaks. I don’t think that the changes at CW meet that standard. But perhaps others disagree. At what point to the changes that are being made make the institution we all love unrecognizable? I don’t think we are anywhere anywhere close to that now but others opinions would be interesting. At what point is it better to let it go than to change it to make it continue?
Elizabeth says
I grew up in Virginia, lived there 30 years, and we love CW. My dad also went to W&M law. My family still lives in Virginia, but my husband, kids, and I live in Montana. I try to go to CW every time we visit Virginia.
The major limiting factor for us: money. We have five kids. I’ve never been able to afford much more than the bare minimum tickets, definitely not the most comprehensive tickets. It’s a huge splurge for us. I always wish to show my kids more, but it just isn’t in the budget. We can never rent costumes or anything like that, but my talented mom did make a replica colonial dress for my daughter since she wanted one on our last visit to CW. There are so many things we would love to do there, although walking around certainly is wonderful too. I like the new activities. I was jealous when I saw the ticket promotion for Virginia residents earlier this year — How we would have loved those when we lived there!
Anyway, I just thought I would mention the economic factor. If it’s too cost prohibitive, families won’t go. There are many activities we would gladly pay for if we had a bigger budget. As it is, we visit and buy the bare minimum ticket, walk around, maybe get a little ice cream, possibly get a souvenir if Grandma and Grandpa tag along, and that’s about all we can manage. I truly hope CW thrives for years to come.
Diana Dean says
I do believe that for so many prices make it difficult. If you are a family with a budget for vacations many will go in a different direction. I love Colonial Williamsburg, but making it more affordable I believe will bring in more visitors. I am a former employee who has watched as the number of families has deminiished over the years. Dinning is incredibly expensive no matter what direction is chosen.
Lynn says
I have loved you Williamsburg through my childhood visits with my parents, through my adult vacations with my husband and children, and even now as a senior . You are my happy place.
Jeff says
The Virginia Gazette reported that CW’s year-over-year attendance is up by 10%. Actual attendance numbers would have been more helpful.
Elara says
Myself and my husband both think that the changes made since 2014 are primarily good ones and the only problem with the change in direction CW has taken is that it wasn’t done sooner to staunch the wound. This is a very unpopular view on message boards right now, but living in Williamsburg (and no, neither myself, nor my husband have ever worked for CW) when we talk to people, both local and tourist, they like the changes that have been made.
For everyone who keeps talking about ‘the good ole days’, well, it’s hard to sell people on that over and over. The most common thing we hear from our out-of-town guests when we ask them if they want to visit CW? “Oh, we went there number of years ago, we don’t need to go again.” I’ve heard that from 5 or 6 different groups of people. It’s only since new programs like ice skating, or the haunted Halloween, or Cry Witch that we’ve been able to get some of our friends and family to give it another go. It’s all well and good to talk about patriotic duty and history (and believe me, as a historian, it’s something I hold dear) but to get people to fork over the ticket prices CW needs (whole other issue) it takes a lot more than “it’s their duty to go to a place like this!” It takes constant new programming to attract new generations.
Like it or lump it, but I want CW to still be here in 50 years, and that means programs that get people in the doors. Only then can you worry about getting the full educational experience across.
Lori says
AMEN, Well said”
Sharon Pajka says
We go to Colonial Williamsburg for our vacation (from Richmond, VA but I work in D.C. and don’t want to travel when I commute so frequently). With the addition of the Halloween activities, we’ve added another weekend stay. We love it and plan to continue going frequently throughout the year. These new changes have only made us want to visit more often.
Kathy Hall says
Reposted. Please read the entire editorial written on July 9th by the Virginia Pilot Editorial Board on this link
https://pilotonline.com/opinion/editorial/editorial-colonial-williamsburg-s-new-mission-should-be-a-return/article_32e26389-c34f-599b-81d1-d7e187ff4d48.html
An excerpt: “It means that nothing — virtually nothing — occurs within the historic area of Williamsburg that has the effect of trivializing or diminishing the values that long distinguished the foundation’s work.” Virginia Pilot Editorial Board
Mary Anne Blackburn says
Again……..Hear! Hear!
Mike Lucotch says
Thanks, Kathy!
Pam Agnew says
I agree with the post further up this chain that describes some of the changes as the “silification” of Colonial Williamsburg. I am not against change. I am against change that goes in the wrong direction, that tries to turn CW into an entertainment venue instead of making history entertaining. Big difference in focus and effect. CW will never be Disney, cannot succeed in trying to be Disney, and will fail at trying to be Disney. Most of the stalwarts who have weighed in are NOT against change. They are against the WRONG kind of changes.
I’ve been going to CW since 1960. I love the changes they have made, like the living history program, the evening programs, the programs where participation is invited (like dance!), the firing range, the blog - and like so many others, I ask what has happened to the blog? I haven’t gotten the blog in months, and when I go back to the blog site I see that a few more blogs have been posted, but they were never sent to me. Yet the site says I am signed up. The blog is a huge outreach with great information (except when it was continually hawking wedding services - a few stories were sweet, and then it became obvious the intent was commercial).
Please go through our emails again and concentrate on 1) what makes us come and 2) what turns us off.
You have our email addresses. SEND SURVEYS AND TALK TO US! We are here, we are engaged, WE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!